Unlocking Interpersonal Harmony: Exploring the SEW Technique

Peter: 00:00:05

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast. I'm Ryan.

Peter: 00:00:27

I'm Peter.

Ryan: 00:00:28

And today we are rounding out our mini series with my takeaways from Tony Robbins. Time to Rise Summit. If you want to know more about that and what we talked about, we have previous three episodes.

Now, before this and today, I wanted to talk about an interesting technique for interrelation skills and working through interpersonal conflict. And it's called so, which is Sew, and it was developed by Dr. Julia Caldwell and.

And this was taught and demonstrated during the time to Rise Summit, which is where I was exposed to it. But it's an interesting technique and I think it's worthwhile to go over and maybe give it a try in your own work. So.

So the SO technique is the core of. It focuses on inarguable truths.

This is the underlying essence of how to communicate and work through a conflict with somebody in a way that doesn't escalate into pointing fingers and defensiveness. And by using inarguable truths, it fosters a deeper connection. And what that means is statements about one's own experience that can't be disputed.

And we'll go into what that looks like a little bit more as we work through the steps.

But basically what it does is it shifts the conversation from blame and finger pointing to personal responsibility and the essence of what each person is experiencing and what they're looking to achieve or what they need in that moment to help move forward. So that's the essence of the SEW technique. Is there anything you'd like to say before we get into the steps?

Peter: 00:02:28

Let's keep going.

Ryan: 00:02:29

All right, so sew, it stands for Sensations, Emotions and wants. So that's what the acronym stands for. And the step one is identifying sensations. So if you're having a conflict or you're feeling anger, that's.

This is a time to reflect on, not what the other person did to, in your perception, cause these things.

Because that's where it becomes arguable that the other person can refute that, but that we focus on the actual sensations that your body is feeling in that moment that you speak about this between the two of you.

So something like, you know, I feel tightness or warmth, things like that, that are irrefutable, these are the things that you are feeling, those are undeniable. And there's no meaning or judgment or blame that's coming in in response to that. The second step is to then acknowledge emotions.

So we articulate and get in tune with the feeling feelings that our body is sensing. And then we identify and name the actual emotions that we're feeling and linking those with the sensations.

So for example, emotions can be anger and sadness and frustration and, you know, anything like that.

So what this is doing is it's framing for the other person the experience that you are feeling in that moment, but is not bringing a causation or interpreting a blame to anybody in particular. So this gives the other person insight into what your experience is without having judgment. And this goes both ways.

So for example, somebody might identify, you know, there could be a conflict and the first person expresses what they're feeling and the other person can have their opportunity to express how their, their sensations. So it's not about what you're feeling. That's that key. Because what you're feeling starts to get into the gray area of causation and blame.

Like I'm feeling like you always do, XYZ kind of thing. So it's identifying those specific bodily sensations and, and then take turns identifying the emotions that you're both feeling in that moment.

And this creates an awareness and a connection between the two in a non judgmental way to understand and have insight into the experience each person is having in that moment. And then the W is wants.

And what that means is, so it's expressing your wants, what, which is communicating your desires or needs clearly and honestly. So what is it that you're looking to get out of as a resolution or what is it that you need in order to move forward?

And again, this is in a non judgmental, irrefutable, unarguable way. So something factual. What's a good example of that? It'd be like somebody wants somebody to.

Peter: 00:05:57

I want you to clear up the bathroom.

Ryan: 00:05:59

Sure. Right. But, but specifics, you know, like I.

Peter: 00:06:03

Want you to pick up your hairbrush.

Ryan: 00:06:05

Yes, that would be good. Something like, something along that line.

Peter: 00:06:10

I have immediate access.

Ryan: 00:06:16

So, you know, the, the benefits of this, this has been, this was developed again by Dr. Julia Caldwell. She has a website, we'll put it in the description, but she does workshops with people.

And this has been something that has been developed and utilized for some time and at some point has become in partnership with Tony Robbins, who then also uses this in his teachings.

But it really encourages the introspection for both parties having that introspection and understanding of One's own triggers and understanding the triggers and experience of the partner. And it doesn't have to be obviously a romantic partner, but the secondary party.

There's improved communication here as it promotes clarity and reduces any misunderstandings that can be infused when we start to blame and finger point and start to attribute things, facts to things that are not factual, things that are interpreted, but they're refutable. So that's the essence of the practice. Any thoughts on that?

Peter: 00:07:30

Yeah, it's interesting. I immediately kind of recognized some elements. My first, my very first thought was, oh, the rain practice. Recognize, allow, investigate, nurture.

Which is, well, something we've talked about before. I've been, you know, familiar with it for a long time, recently trained in more detail with it.

Originally developed by Michelle McDonald, mindfulness teacher. And over time, you know, Tara Brak has. It's really become like one of her hallmark teachings and she's, she's modified it from the original.

So this is a slight inversion of that because in the rain practice, you recognize. You start with recognizing the emotion and then in the middle step, investigate, you are finding the bodily sensations.

And then the last step, nurture, you're addressing what's needed. And so in this one, you're starting with the physical sensation and then you move to naming the emotion.

And then they both have the finding the need at the end and addressing the need. Now, of course, this is an interpersonal exercise.

Ryan: 00:08:42

So rain is typically internal.

Peter: 00:08:46

Rain is internal. It can be done with a partner, but the partner is an observer, not kind of the subject.

Whereas it seems here, you know, you have two people who are in conflict. And so you are each. I mean, you're sharing. It sounds like you're sharing your internal process. You're not saying anything about the other person.

You're reporting on your own experience, but for the purpose of having the other person understand you better. Right, right.

Ryan: 00:09:12

And reduce defensive. The propensity for defensiveness.

Peter: 00:09:16

Right. And so the other thing that this reminds me of is nonviolent communication process, which it just reminds me of it. I can't.

It's hard for me to draw the parallels, but basically, I mean, obviously it's. It's any good interpersonal conflict management tool. Right. Is going to avoid accusations, defensiveness and whatnot.

So my first question or observation other than recognizing parallels is that it can be challenging. It can be very challenging for some people to recognize their physical sensations. So I almost feel like, oh, this is starting to.

As a more advanced practice. So I'm wondering, you know, not having, not having Visited her website or even taking Tony's training.

Ryan: 00:10:10

Right, right.

Peter: 00:10:11

So what does he say about accessing. Basically having an embodied presence? Without an embodied presence, you can't do this.

And it's a fairly common thing in our society for people to be cerebral and detached from their physical experience. So does the Tony address that at all?

Ryan: 00:10:32

So he didn't specifically address it like in that way. The observation I had or what I was in contact with was a he was teaching or. Or beginning to teach it.

And what we watched was actually a replay of a different seminar or whatever that he was doing or. And it actually was presented as a couple who had been there at the event and through the day. The first day.

I don't remember the details of what led to this, but essentially what.

What happened was this woman had an affair years before and it had been sort of this unspoken thing, like it was never admitted, but it sounded like the husband always kind of thought something may have happened and she kind of had this repressed guilt about it.

And whatever had happened on the first day when they went back to their hotel room, she felt inclined or compelled in some way to share and kind of clear this air, which obviously out of nowhere and in this event created some tension. And their initial instinct was that they were just going to be done with the event. They were going to leave that day, which is the day that they.

In question here that about the SEW technique.

And I don't remember the exact specifics how they came to stay, but they decided they would stay and Tony actually worked with them on stage through this. And to your point, there was definitely some muddiness around how this was implemented, but Tony was there to re. Redirect. Right.

And call out, you know, compassionately when it didn't.

It wasn't identifying the right thing and really helping both parties to drill down into the nuance and detail of what the actual experience was versus the perceived experience and the narrative that we tell ourselves about that feeling. I think that's what you're talking about, right?

Peter: 00:12:39

Yeah.

So it's basically a caveat of, you know, don't think that just because there are three, you know, it's a three letter acronym like, oh, I can pick this up and I'll just do this first. It's like it might be challenging. I. So I was in contact with rain practice for years before I was actually doing it effectively.

Ryan: 00:13:00

Right.

Peter: 00:13:01

And I worked with partners later, once I had the. The hang of it, I was working with partners and partners were struggling and it would be, you Know the kind of question of.

So now we're investigating what do you feel? Right. Like. Well, I feel anger. Okay, well, what do you feel in the body? What are the physical sensations?

Well, and then it would go into stories, right. About why you're angry. You know, like events, stories, sequence and.

Or it can be very hard to get out of that mode because you're engaging with emotion. Right. And because we're often habituated to justifying our emotions rather than experiencing the emotion. And so it can be.

Yeah, it just, it can be very challenging to what the hell are the physical sense? I don't know what the physical sensation is. I just know I'm angry.

Ryan: 00:13:59

Right, right, right.

Peter: 00:14:01

I'm just really sad and I'm crying. I don't know what the physical sensation is. It can be difficult to access.

So I'm just saying that don't have too high expectations that you're going to go to a website and immediately, oh, I'm going to just follow the instructions and do the thing. It may work fine. Or as you described, it may be better to have a facilitator who could say, yeah, that's not exactly what we mean. Right, right.

It's like, what's your actual physical, like find where in your body are you having a sensation? Right.

And, you know, maybe do a body scan or maybe have them suggest like, is it in your head, is in your chest, is it in your belly, is it in your legs, your back? I mean, but just running through a list can be helpful. So I haven't looked at the website yet, so I don't know if they suggest any of these things.

Ryan: 00:14:57

I don't know that I, I haven't investigated specifically. I think that.

So number one, absolutely, I agree with you and that in bringing this, it's to bring awareness of the practice and encouraging somebody if they find this interesting to, you know, I know Julia Caldwell does do activities and work with people, so getting some facilitated training and understanding around it. But at the same time, I think that mean the, the basics of this is not complicated. Right. It, it's the actualizing it that becomes more difficult.

And I think the more we, if we have an intention and keep it in mind, the more we can try, even if we're not great at it. I guess I would say I don't know that somebody can make things worse by trying this, but I agree 100%.

Keep, keep expectations reasonable about how well you could do this on your own with no training. But what I would recommend or, and what I was thinking about when you said it.

And maybe this is a good opportunity for rain and to plug rain, which is, number one, a retrospective analysis. Like trying to do this when you're not in a heightened state. Because the more we practice it, the better we'll be.

And even if you're in a happy state or, you know, basically trying to implement this not in the midst of a conflict, but to try and do this kind of work, like identify your emotions and find those sensations and think about what it is that we really want and practice that more when we are in our more relaxed state.

Peter: 00:16:40

Yeah. So when we talk about doing this in the midst of the conflict, the. Then it becomes an advanced practice. I'm like, right, yeah. Really?

Is that what, Is that what they suggest on the, on the website? I'm a little like, you know, they.

Ryan: 00:16:56

Say, okay, here you go. This is your one page, your one sheet. Go and do it.

Peter: 00:17:03

First of all, I was very excited to like, oh, how interesting. It's kind of. I wouldn't say it's an alternative terrain. It resembles rain. It's interesting to have a tool specifically for interpersonal work.

So that's interesting. And to be able to apply for me what I've learned from rain, to be able to use this more easily.

Ryan: 00:17:29

Right.

Peter: 00:17:30

Or to be able to facilitate someone else using it. So I'm interested as, as all of our listeners know, I am like always an interpersonal conflict. It's kind of my. And so I'm, I'm, I'm interested in. Oh.

Huh. I wonder, you know, if. I wonder if I could introduce this. So here's the challenge, right.

Is in as described, you have to have your partner agree to this kind of thing. Yeah. So that's like, okay, so that's my challenge. Like, huh, Can I introduce this?

Ryan: 00:18:05

I mean, you could do it yourself, but of course it's not going to have quite the same effect because if the other person isn't engaging in the same activities. But it could, even if it was one way diffuse, you know, some of that.

Peter: 00:18:21

Sure.

Ryan: 00:18:21

Right, sure.

Peter: 00:18:22

I mean, if one person's not fighting.

Ryan: 00:18:24

Right.

Peter: 00:18:25

It's a little bit better.

Ryan: 00:18:28

I also think that, you know, you made the mention of the inversion between emotions and sense. And my guess is that there's not really an importance about that sequence. But that SEW was a nicer acronym than esw.

I don't know that for sure, but I would go. I would venture to guess that.

Peter: 00:18:48

Well, I think that if to start with. So let's say this is your toolbox. This is in your toolbox for when you start to come into conflict with your partner.

And so again, I think this is about, not necessarily a romantic partner, but definitely someone with whom you have a relationship. I mean, this is a, I would say an intimate relationship because you're, you have mutuality here.

Ryan: 00:19:14

Right.

Peter: 00:19:15

You can't do this without a mutual commitment to actually do it.

Ryan: 00:19:18

Right.

Peter: 00:19:19

So I would say that's significant relationship on the outset.

Ryan: 00:19:22

Yeah.

Peter: 00:19:22

So, but given that this is in your toolbox for conflict, so you're, you're interacting with this person and you start to have conflict and you say, okay, well, let's try to use the SEW technique. Okay. That means you're both immediately going to drop into physical presence.

Ryan: 00:19:42

Sure.

Peter: 00:19:43

Which automatically that's like a huge step. So if you are both doing this technique, I pretty much guarantee it's going to have a better, better outcome.

Ryan: 00:19:54

Yeah.

Peter: 00:19:54

Because, but of course, conversely, that means you have to master this first step and be able to drop into physical presence in the middle of conflict. I'm like, what the hell? I mean, this is what I was talking about. I was telling Ryan before that I had significant conflict on the weekend.

I had a very bad night of sleep. I woke up, had tried to have like a nice conversation. I totally flew off the handle. I was like, it was bad, it was bad. My physical sensation.

Oh, this is going to be interesting. You know, for me to drop back, actually, I need to go home and do some rain with this. So if you don't know rain.

Rain is often used retroactively for difficult emotions. And the instruction is very often, okay, we're going to do rain now.

So call up an event where you had a strong emotion that you want to deal with or that was difficult. You know, you, you kind of want to work with it because this is a emotion that it's sticky for. You can't get over it.

And so now it's like, oh, well, I know what to do because I just had this huge emotional episode for myself. So the question where was I going? I guess my point was I know I had this very intense interpersonal interaction conflict. I don't know how I felt.

I don't know what my physical sensations were. Like, I can sit down and, and re. Embody the event and come to what my physical sensations are. But right now I can't just tell you.

And I don't feel like sinking. I don't want to go there right now. Yeah. So it's interesting the more, the more I talk about this. So technique as an interpersonal technique.

The more I go, this is an advanced technique. This is not, this is not like intro meditation.

Ryan: 00:21:43

Right.

Peter: 00:21:44

Because it requires a partner and it requires you both have the ability to verbally identify your physical feelings of intense emotion. I mean, I think by definition, you're going to do this when there's an intense conflict. So that's my only comment.

I didn't know coming in what, you know, what I knew that we were talking about, so I didn't know what it was like, oh, this is an advanced practice. I mean, it's clearly going to be valuable. Yeah, but it's also clearly not. I just don't think it's a beginner practice.

Ryan: 00:22:21

Sure.

Peter: 00:22:23

But I'm excited to, to look at it and to, you know, try to add it to my toolbox.

Ryan: 00:22:29

Yeah, no, I think, I think that's a valid point. I also think that, like, rain, you could probably. Well, I guess it would be more like a rain practice at that point.

Like I was saying before, like calling up a historical event and trying to do a, an analysis on it.

Peter: 00:22:47

I think that's the only way you would learn the technique.

Ryan: 00:22:49

Exactly.

Peter: 00:22:51

Retroactively. And plus, it's the only way it would be really safe to learn it. I mean, again, you have to do it with a partner. Right.

Ryan: 00:22:59

Right. So not 100%. I think also you could, it's like.

Peter: 00:23:05

Oh, let's, let's sit down together, open up our check, our joint checkbook. And like, okay, now we have conflicts. You know, there it is.

Ryan: 00:23:13

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend doing it that way. Yeah. And obviously we're not, certainly not advocating for practicing by intentionally creating conflict.

Peter: 00:23:25

Remember, Remember a couple weekends ago when we couldn't decide on where to go for dinner and we got kind of cranky? Yeah, let's, let's revisit that episode, you know, or something like that.

Ryan: 00:23:34

Yeah.

Peter: 00:23:35

Something benign conflict. Benign conflict. Not a threatening conflict.

Ryan: 00:23:42

Right, right.

Peter: 00:23:43

So, So I, I, I see that from the notes reference enhancing self awareness, which tells me that this dovetails really nicely with rain. I think, I think this really, I think rain really should be part of this practice.

I mean, clearly, you know, they don't want to over complicate or even necessarily introduce other people's teachings while they're trying to teach this.

Ryan: 00:24:09

They may not even be aware of rain.

Peter: 00:24:11

Yeah, it's possible, but yeah, I don't know. It's really common. But I mean, especially if you're, because you're, you know, she's in this arena.

Yeah, but I specifically think this would go really well with rain. I mean, the thing, it's almost. The more I think about it, the more I think that rain is a prerequisite to this.

If you can't do rain by yourself, you probably can't do this with a partner.

Ryan: 00:24:39

Sure.

Peter: 00:24:39

I mean, that's my experience because that was my. One of my first exposures to embodied presence was through rain.

So that's part of how I learned embodied presence, which is this is requiring embodied presence. So that's why I'm saying that not that you must do rain, but if you haven't done this already, rain is probably going to be a valuable learning tool.

Ryan: 00:25:03

Yeah.

Peter: 00:25:04

And then the second thing is the note says combining with active listening, which is exactly analogous to why I was talking about active listening is a part of nonviolent communication. And the. There are caveats about active listening. Like there's, There are pitfalls. That's not the right word.

Active listening actually kind of got a bad rap and kind of leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths because it's. It's routinely trained without. It's routinely superficially trained. Okay. And so then people practice it superficially.

And if you do that, it's more irritating than effective.

Ryan: 00:25:48

Okay.

Peter: 00:25:49

And so that's why I'm saying there's a caveat there. It's like, make sure you understand what active listening is. And. And so I would point to nonviolent communication.

There's a book, say what yout Mean, which I think I've mentioned before. Oren J. Soffer is a meditation teacher who wrote that book.

Actually it's an extension of the original work, Nonviolent Communication, that was developed 10 or 15 years prior to Oren J. Soffer coming into contact with it. And I guess we'll put in the notes who that person is because his name slips my mind.

But Orin's observation was that mindfulness was missing from the 9 non. The original non violent communication work did not specifically cite mindfulness.

And Orin as a mindfulness teacher who had a lot of interpersonal conflict, by the way, apparently sounded familiar. He worked through it and then he introduced and he spoke to the Creator. And the Creator said, absolutely, you're right, you should write a book.

Like, you should develop that idea. You should do that. And he did. And so he did. That's funny.

Ryan: 00:27:02

Yeah, interesting. I guess one, I guess last, unless you have something afterwards.

But point is that I'm reading here that the part of the purpose here is when there's a power dynamic that was a key element of the use of.

So that it can rebalance in conflict where there's a significant power differential or a power dynamic there because of this inarguable truth that helps to kind of balance the power struggle.

Peter: 00:27:36

And I would comment on that from personal experience because I have a very aggressive communication style. That's what I grew up with. Which means that there's already. There's a power differential there in my personal interactions.

Ryan: 00:27:52

Right.

Peter: 00:27:53

Because the people I interact with generally are not as verbally aggressive as I am. So I have the power advantage because that's, again, that's the way I grew up. It's like you wield verbal power. That's how you. That's how you work.

That's, you know. So just to say. Oh, yeah, this is especially relevant for me.

Ryan: 00:28:16

Right.

Peter: 00:28:17

In my. In. In addressing my interpersonal conflict.

Ryan: 00:28:21

Right. What was the crucial conversations that talks about the. The loud ones? Very. The. The two ways of dealing Fight and flight.

It's not fight and flight, but yes. There's like a. Like a shutting down one.

Peter: 00:28:35

Yeah.

Ryan: 00:28:35

And an explosive one that just kind of reminded me of that.

Peter: 00:28:40

Style's under stress, isn't it? Right. I don't remember.

Ryan: 00:28:43

And I remember when we were, I think, doing crucial conversations, but I don't know where it came from. It was. The facilitator at the time was talking about it.

Peter: 00:28:53

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And essentially it's fight versus flight.

Ryan: 00:28:58

Right.

Peter: 00:28:59

Response. Right, right. It's. It's the.

Ryan: 00:29:02

You're silence or violence.

Peter: 00:29:04

Silence or violence. Very good. Yeah. So your. Your. Your tendency under stress. What is your tendency under stress? Silence or violence.

Ryan: 00:29:10

Right, so.

And as you were saying, that can create a power dynamic in and of itself, even if there's not a traditional power dynamic as far as like a boss and stuff like that for parent and child. Or parent. Child. Absolutely, absolutely. So. So again, this is a hard one to say that anyways.

You know, this obviously was not intended in any way to teach this technique. And, you know, I'm. I found it interesting.

It's obviously quite aligned with the rain technique, which I'm more familiar with, which makes perfect sense. And I like Peter's suggestion of incorporating these two together if somebody was so inclined to pursue it.

If you do choose to pursue it, definitely reach out or, you know, connect with the proper resources. Resources to learn this technique.

Peter: 00:30:05

Basically. Basically, you want to focus on the inarguable. Your own experience.

Ryan: 00:30:11

Yes.

Peter: 00:30:12

And this is a recurring theme for us as well. Yes. Right. It's that we're always trying to speak from our own experience.

Ryan: 00:30:21

Yes.

Peter: 00:30:21

Because that's where the inarguable truth is. There you go.

Ryan: 00:30:25

Absolutely perfect. Thank you for that. So I hope you found this interesting. Leave a comment if you have any input on this.

And until next time, stay open, stay curious, and keep tracking Wisdom.

Peter: 00:30:42

Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

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