Exploring the Intersection of Nanophysics and Consciousness

Peter: 00:00:03

You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal

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truths that we see woven through culture,

consciousness, and the human experience.

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Ryan: Good morning everybody, and

welcome back to another episode

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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

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I'm Ryan,

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Peter: I'm Peter,

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Ryan: and today I wanted to talk about Dr.

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Anita Goel.

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So this is a physicist and MD

that we came across in yet another

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Essentia Foundation interview.

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Dr.

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Anita Goel, MD PhD, she's a physicist

and world renowned expert and pioneering

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in the emerging field of nano physics.

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And she is a physicist by training

and has been enamored or, inspired

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by, nano machinery, nanotechnology and

in particular she has a focus on DNA

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transcription and DNA polymerase as a

nano machine, and has some theories around

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how it might be interacting with quantum

mechanics and how using the biological

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system, the living systems, which in

are inherently open versus the classical

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physics and the work that's been done

historically on closed systems, how

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studying that may help us make strides in

closing the gap that Einstein, Schrodinger

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Penrose and the like have all acknowledged

that there's something missing,

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something not quite complete about our

understanding of quantum mechanics.

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And she has a, a theory that studying

this understanding, not only the

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nanotechnology itself, but essentially

if her theories are proven to be, sound,

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that we could use that as a quantum

sensor . That we could use biological

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systems and their interaction with

the quantum field quantum mechanics to

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detect those interactions and further

our understanding of quantum mechanics.

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Is that a fair way of

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Peter: Yeah, I think that the point

of the idea of the quantum detector is

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that the system, so the D.N.A./D.N.A.

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polymerase experimental system,

can be developed into, technology

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that can be used to create the

equivalent of a double slit experiment

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. Ryan: Right.

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Peter: So, as you were saying, you know,

she points out that, quantum theory is

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incomplete, and a way of reducing the

incompleteness is to turn away from

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inanimate closed systems and start

to look at living systems, because

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it'll just give us a different view.

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I mean, everything that we

know is from experimentalists.

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Well, I mean, not just

experimentalists theorists too, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Ignoring living systems, because

living systems are too messy.

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And, because of her work in Nanosystems

and her ability to manipulate living

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systems and make them tractable

to experimentation, she's like,

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oh no, they're not too messy.

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And I think part of her.

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Thing too is that the apparent messiness,

may have to do with the intrinsic

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involvement of quantum effects.

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Ryan: Hmm.

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Peter: She says some clearer things

about quantum effects and living systems,

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which are really interesting, but, the

big goal, at least that they're talking

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about in this conversation, is to create

something like the double slit experiment.

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Something that clearly demonstrates the

properties of quantum physics, but using a

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completely new kind of experimental setup.

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And it's not to duplicate the, mm-hmm.

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Double slit, but an experiment that

has the impact of the double split

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experiment and that it's a very

clear demonstration of, well the

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double split experiment demonstrates

the kind of dual nature of light as

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wave and particle at the same time.

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The double slit experiment

demonstrates ensemble behavior.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: And so, she's looking for a kind

of experiment to do in a biological

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system, specifically her nanotech

setup with DNA and DNA polymerase,

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and she says that the roadmap is

there, needs a lot more resource to

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refine the resolution of the system,

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Ryan: mm-hmm,

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Peter: in order to set up the

correct kind of experiment.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: And then goes far field

later on into her own kind

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of intuitive understanding

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of the nature of, I guess

reality and consciousness.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: To some extent.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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And one thing that I did find interesting

is how, number one, she presented

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the idealist paradigm, but, as we had

mentioned in previous episodes, it

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seems that the scientists that we've

come in contact with that are on the

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idealist side of the conversation,

all appear to have had a precipitating

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experiential event, that then led

them to use their scientific skills

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and knowledge to pursue this avenue.

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And she, from all accounts that we can

tell, is the first one that I can recall

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that came to this purely scientifically.

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Peter: Intellectually.

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Ryan: Intellectually and theoretically,

that we keep bumping up against walls with

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the classical approach and the materialist

paradigm, specifically around the quantum

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measurement problem and the hard problem

of consciousness that , by flipping

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that on its head and starting with the

consciousness first paradigm, these

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things become more readily answerable.

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But she's very adamant

about using rigorous.

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Yeah.

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scientific approach and data.

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And she has a very high

bar for her research.

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She was saying she has high hopes for it,

but she's also her highest critic where

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she's, very, stringent on making sure that

the output of this research is rigorous.

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And that, it also encompasses

and answers all the classical

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things that we already know.

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That all has to be part of what comes

out of the experiment and the theory.

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She's particularly interested

in the medicine side of things.

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We've all benefited from, utility of

quantum mechanics with the smartphones

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and things like that, quantum computing.

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Peter: In terms of healthcare,

CAT scans, MRIs, x-rays.

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Ryan: Sure.

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Right.

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Peter: Those are, yeah.

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Ryan: And, she made a very specific

comment that medicine is essentially

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still stuck in the biochemical.

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Peter: So yeah, I mean it's this

kind of roadblock of knowledge

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or dead end that we've hit just

I think in knowledge in general.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: There's a lot of discussion

about how, as you said, the founders of

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quantum mechanics were very frustrated

with the incompleteness of the theory.

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Which is what Schrodinger's cat is,

is a satirizing and exaggeration

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of the problems of the theory,

the shortcoming of the theory.

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And that, it's not just physics

that hit that roadblock.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: Like all the other disciplines,

like medicine is limited because

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essentially medicine is completely

dependent on chemistry and physics.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: You know, she was a physician

who decided to become a physicist.

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And her vision is that by breaking

through this roadblock in physics,

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we can open huge horizons in, in

medicine, healthcare, and, and beyond.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: Because of course, every time

you crack the limitations of physics,

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you open up incredible new technologies.

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So yeah, she's a very, I

think, what's the word?

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Free thinker?

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Like visionary.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: Very visionary, but, also very,

very committed to grounding herself.

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And she's like, I have to play like a

child and dream big and then constrain

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myself to what can we measure.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: And how can I figure

out how to measure it?

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And she just goes back and forth

between these, these states.

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Which kind of reminds me of Hoffman.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: Talking about meditating,

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Ryan: yeah,

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Peter: and then doing science.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: Right?

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And swinging between those states.

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So you already mentioned,

open versus closed systems.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: Physical experimental systems

being inanimate and closed and being

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at or near equilibrium, as she says.

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And then living systems are open systems

that are, never very near equilibrium.

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They're constantly building.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: She uses the term negentropic,

which I just thought was great.

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And she talks about current physics and

future physics, current physics being

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matter and energy and future physics

adding information into the equation,

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that's her vision is to break through.

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And her intention is to refine this

nanotech biological system that she works

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with, to sufficient resolution to perform

this experiment; we don't know what it

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would be, that will crack the barrier

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Ryan: mm-hmm

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Peter: of quantum physics.

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Ryan: So she, specifically about the

DNA polymerase, is enamored by both

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the energy efficiency of the molecule,

and its processing volume and speed.

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She speaks to how the DNA polymerase

as it's transcribing and building

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does a hundred billion computational

steps per 10 milliseconds.

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And will be able to error correct

itself when there's mutations.

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She does talk a little bit about whether

those mutations are random versus

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environmental or quantum, and this is

part of where she's going with this is

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to determine if there is a consequential

quantum and environmental element , that's

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where information comes in, versus

something that's Darwinian and is random.

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Peter: So you were starting to say

that she's interested in the polymerase

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as a machine, as an nano machine.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: And she suspects that the way

DNA polymerase works, may be exploiting

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quantum effects, in a non-trivial

way, for function and efficiency.

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So you named the function of calculate

a hundred billion steps per base pair.

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So each time the polymerase reads a

base of DNA, it needs to perform a

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hundred billion computational steps

in order to find the correct base to

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attach to the base that it wants to

connect, to build the matching strand.

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But the other piece of it is that,

the polymerase is also acting as a

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molecular motor, because it's moving

mechanically along the DNA strand.

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And as a molecular motor, it's 99.9%

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efficient.

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And she says that, compared to 20 to

40% for an internal combustion engine.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: That these two extraordinary

features of the nano machine suggest to

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her that something strange is going on,

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Ryan: right,

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Peter: that's beyond the

purview of just regular physics.

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And so she suspects that there are quantum

effects happening, or that the polymerase

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is exploiting quantum effects in some

ways, to give itself these superpowers.

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Ryan: And I think that those are

both indicators, and potential uses.

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Right?

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If we understand better how

it manages to achieve a 99.9%

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energy efficiency, that that could help

us in the material world to achieve

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better efficiencies in energy usage.

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And then she did say specifically,

the non-trivial quantum effects is the

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question that starts the whole thing.

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The effects of the quantum

collapse, and the coherence,

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historically has been dismissed as

trivial to the biological system.

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Her first step in pursuing this

theory is to determine does the

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collapse happen before the end of

the computational phase, or after.

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So if it extends long enough, then

we can interpret that there is a

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potential for non-trivial impact of

quantum mechanics, versus if it happens

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so fast that it would be trivial.

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Peter: So does quantum ness

or superposition exist in this

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system, of DNA and polymerase,

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Ryan: long enough

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Peter: long enough to be relevant

to, basically for the time

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needed to read a base pair,

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Ryan: right.

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Peter: Which, as you

said, is 10 milliseconds.

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So she has a specific timeframe for

which she needs to demonstrate the

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sustained coherence of a quantum state.

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Ryan: Yes.

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Peter: I get that there's a thing

called superposition, which means

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you are two things at the same time.

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If you're a cat, you're alive and dead

at the same time, if you're a photon,

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you're a wave and a particle at the

same time, and then at some point

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that superposition collapses or that

quantum coherence has a decoherence.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: And when that happens, now you've

gone from an indeterminate state of

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being both things to the determinate

state of being a single thing.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: Okay, now here's the question.

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Is the coherence very short or very

long ? Because, I read somewhere that

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the reason that we can see photons

collapse is because there are so many

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of them that the odds of some collapsing

at any given time are, are high.

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But that the the timeframe of

decoherence is extremely long.

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: Like thousands

or millions of years.

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And the, the only reason that we

see the decoherence is because

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of these huge numbers of events

that we're we're considering.

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On the other hand, I thought I

understood that superposition only

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happens for infinitesimally small

amounts of time before collapse.

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And then Penrose says it's all about,

okay, now we're in the measurement

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problem because we're saying, oh, it's

not about the time, it's about whether

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there's an observer or not, because the

observer is what creates the collapse.

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And Penrose says, no, it's not

about an observer, that's garbage,

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gravity is what creates the collapse.

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And i'm not even sure how

that happens, because does,

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Ryan: well I think he was, he was

talking about how Mass had impact on the

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Peter: so the mass of the thing

allows you to calculate how

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long the coherence will be.

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Ryan: That's what he said.

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Peter: Right.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: So is he saying it's

very short because photons

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Ryan: are small.

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Peter: Are small so they have very low

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Ryan: or is it the other way around?

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Peter: Gravitational effects, so

therefore they immediately collapse.

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Ryan: Think it's the other way

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Peter: so if you're a planet

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Ryan: saying if, if it's

big, it collapses quickly,

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Peter: immediately, right?

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If you're a planet, you're just a

planet, you're not like two kinds

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of planet, you're not, you're not

dead and alive at the same time.

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But if you're a tiny

photon, you maintain your

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Ryan: quantum state for

a long period of time,

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Peter: for a long period of time.

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Ryan: I think that's what he was saying.

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Peter: Right, so what she's saying

is that the quantum state of the

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DNA polymerase, DNA and polymerase

complex has to be long enough, has

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to be at least 10 milliseconds.

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If she can demonstrate that, then

she knows, okay, that's a relevant

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Ryan: right

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Peter: timeframe.

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For what we're looking at.

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So we can use this for

a quantum experiment,

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Ryan: it at least says that there's.

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Potential for meaningful impact.

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Peter: Meaningful interaction.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: Because if it was shorter

than that, then there's no way the

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quantum effect could be impacting

the reading of the base pair.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: She cites some other examples

where, so this is leading edge technology,

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experimentalism, or whatever, that

it's not, it's very controversial.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: Still, but there are

couple of studies suggesting,

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the presence of non-trivial

quantum effects in living systems.

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And she says there's some studies in

bird navigation, I believe it's bird

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navigation, and in photosynthesis,

which we haven't looked up with this.

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But she does indicate that,

she's not the only one looking at

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quantum effects in living systems.

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But it, it sounds like she's

the one who's most committed to

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creating the definitive experiment.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: And she feels like she has

a system that she's working with

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that she can continue to refine

in order to accomplish that.

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Ryan: Right, she has the roadmap.

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She seems to understand what

needs to happen, but that the

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tools and measurements, still

need resolution improvement in

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order to get to what she needs.

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And she cited resource as a main

component of that of course.

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And so she didn't talk

specifically about consciousness,

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except really at two places.

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At the beginning when she was

describing the idealist paradigm, and

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suggesting consciousness first and

everything else comes out of that.

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But then at the end, she went through

her theory and what her intent for her

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experiments and pursuit is, and then

started to describe what she was calling

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the fifth industrial revolution driven

around AI, which is obviously continuing

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to develop, got into taking off her

scientific hat and putting on her humanity

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hat that, as we start to grapple with will

the electronic systems become conscious,

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what is the definition of consciousness?

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The pursuit of understanding consciousness

has been there for a long time.

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It's the hard question that periodically

I think we poke at, but hasn't had

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the urgency, until now, where we have

now a compelling reason to have to,

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really understand and define what is

consciousness, what defines consciousness.

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And beyond that, if we take

the materialist paradigm to its

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natural conclusion, if fact, the

machines take over human activity,

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where is the purpose, right?

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What, where do we find the

value and purpose in life?

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And that the materialist paradigm

sort of shuts it down is basically

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Peter: right

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Ryan: being end.

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Peter: Right.

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And we heard this from Faggin as well.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: That if you adhere to the materials

paradigm, which is what is creating AI,

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Ryan: right,

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Peter: you maintain this mechanistic

perspective until the mechanisms

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exceed the capabilities of humans.

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And now the mechanisms have

more value than humans.

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And now humanity has destroyed itself

because it's created machines that

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: 00:19:28

have more value than their creators.

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: 00:19:31

Ryan: Right.

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: 00:19:31

Peter: And so, that fact of obvious

conclusion, compels us to shift

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: 00:19:38

our understanding of consciousness.

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: 00:19:39

And not to just change your minds,

but to really understand, to really

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: 00:19:43

answer the question as, you're saying.

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: 00:19:46

So there's this very dystopian, gloomy

message there, but at the same time, the

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: 00:19:51

converse is, and this is also I think

something that's we've heard consistently

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: 00:19:56

from people exploring these kinds of

ideas, that freeing ourselves from the

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: 00:20:01

materialist paradigm will open infinite

horizons, and usher in a golden age of

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: 00:20:09

combined spiritualism and technology.

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: 00:20:11

Ryan: Yeah.

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: 00:20:12

Peter: And that's something that she

talks pretty strongly about is, we're

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: 00:20:16

really past the point where we can

talk about oh, it's just technology,

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: 00:20:21

or, oh, it's just spiritualism.

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: 00:20:23

She points out that there's thousands of

years of, what I'm going call non-material

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: 00:20:27

technology, spiritual cultures and systems

and, and disciplines, that are focused

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: 00:20:34

on the non-material aspect of reality.

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: 00:20:38

But that they generally come at

the expense of material progress.

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: 00:20:44

And I think this is maybe

a trivial illustration?

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: 00:20:47

I don't know if it's a good illustration.

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: 00:20:48

But the apparent material dominance

of the West over the East, where

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: 00:20:54

these spiritual traditions are

stronger and more developed.

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: 00:20:59

And she also mentions indigenous peoples.

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: 00:21:02

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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: 00:21:02

Peter: So there's another example

of like, yeah, I think you can point

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: 00:21:05

to pretty poor material success in

those cultures, even though there

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: 00:21:10

may be exceptional spiritual success.

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: 00:21:13

Ryan: Right.

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: 00:21:13

Peter: And that we shouldn't

be having either or.

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: 00:21:17

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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: 00:21:18

Peter: You know, we shouldn't be

materially supreme and wealthy and have

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: 00:21:22

amazing technology, and chronically

depressed and anxious and troubled,

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: 00:21:27

Ryan: right,

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: 00:21:28

Peter: and sleepless.

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: 00:21:28

And that it's now is the time to

understand the relationship of

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: 00:21:35

the material and the non-material.

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: 00:21:37

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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: 00:21:38

Peter: And I, I was gonna say exploit,

which is not the right term…

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: 00:21:42

leverage the understanding of both,

to create this abundance and harmony.

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: 00:21:48

Ryan: Yeah, I mean that, that has

been a consistent message amongst, I

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: 00:21:53

don't know if it's been explicit with

all the thinkers we've been exploring

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: 00:21:58

here, but definitely I know this one,

and I think others have described it

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: 00:22:02

as well, which is, the the historical

mystical philosophy has been, there's

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: 00:22:08

an interconnectedness with all things.

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: 00:22:11

And the historical materialist perspective

has been compartmentalizing everything.

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: 00:22:17

And I think it sounds like the idealist

philosophy has an expected outcome that,

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: 00:22:26

if proven, the widespread awareness and

understanding of our interconnectedness

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: 00:22:33

with each other, and the planet, and

all things will lead to better ethics,

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: 00:22:39

geopolitical and business practices, that

by and large society will be constructive.

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: 00:22:45

Peter: Yeah.

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: 00:22:46

I mean, it will transform

our concept of values,

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: 00:22:50

Ryan: right?

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: 00:22:50

Peter: Values and value.

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: 00:22:52

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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: 00:22:52

Peter: I think the, the current Western

industrial idea is that more is better.

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: 00:22:59

That, I can and have, more than you.

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: 00:23:01

And if I have more than you,

then I am more valuable than you.

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: 00:23:06

I think the rise of dystopian fiction

is kind of an exploration of that.

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: 00:23:11

You know, I, because I think

dystopian fiction is all about

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: 00:23:15

the devaluation of the human.

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: 00:23:17

Ryan: Yeah.

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: 00:23:17

Peter: And tends to be about the

accumulation of power amongst the few.

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: 00:23:24

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

387

: 00:23:24

Peter: And the division of haves and

have-nots and, you know, some few people

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: 00:23:29

at the top on the island are in the sky

or on the special planet or whatever.

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: 00:23:34

And the protagonists being

the undervalued, struggling

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: 00:23:38

people without resource.

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: 00:23:40

Um, and that with a real understanding of

both the nature of consciousness and the

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: 00:23:48

nature of reality, which will go together.

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: 00:23:50

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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: 00:23:50

Peter: If we understand the nature

of consciousness, then we will

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: 00:23:53

understand the nature of reality.

396

: 00:23:54

And once we have that understanding,

this idea of have and have

397

: 00:23:58

not won't make any sense.

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: 00:24:01

And I think when that shift

happens, where it becomes

399

: 00:24:06

viewed as scientifically proven.

400

: 00:24:09

Ryan: Right?

401

: 00:24:10

Peter: Right.

402

: 00:24:10

It, it has the imprimatur of, oh,

the scientists have shown this.

403

: 00:24:15

Then human culture will be able

to shift back to this harmonious,

404

: 00:24:22

kind of back to the garden, really.

405

: 00:24:24

Right?

406

: 00:24:24

So going way back to Joseph

Campbell and the garden, we lost

407

: 00:24:28

the garden because of an idea.

408

: 00:24:29

Ryan: Yeah.

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: 00:24:29

Peter: Or knowledge.

410

: 00:24:30

But I mean, basically

it's a way of thinking.

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: 00:24:33

Ryan: Yeah.

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: 00:24:33

Peter: That I think it's pretty

trivial to hypothesize that that's

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: 00:24:38

talking about materialist paradigm.

414

: 00:24:40

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

415

: 00:24:40

Peter: Once you start thinking

that I know I need clothes.

416

: 00:24:44

Clothes are important.

417

: 00:24:46

Everything to get clothes and,

you know, everything I do.

418

: 00:24:49

And God's not important.

419

: 00:24:50

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

420

: 00:24:51

Peter: It's the fact that

I'm naked, that's important.

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: 00:24:53

That now you've lost, you've lost

security, you've lost happiness.

422

: 00:25:02

And the consistent message from these

thinkers that we're trying to listen

423

: 00:25:07

to and read is that there's a very real

possibility that, by pursuing science

424

: 00:25:14

in the right way, we can actually bring

humanity from the brink of dystopia, to

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: 00:25:21

this golden age, return to to harmony.

426

: 00:25:25

Which is a very compelling idea,

a very compelling idea being put

427

: 00:25:29

forward by people who seem not to

be crackpots on the street corner.

428

: 00:25:34

Ryan: Right.

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: 00:25:34

Peter: I mean, people are

seriously pursuing this.

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: 00:25:37

Ryan: Yeah.

431

: 00:25:37

Using the scientific method.

432

: 00:25:38

Peter: Mm-hmm.

433

: 00:25:39

Ryan: Well, I found this speaker quite

interesting to listen to, and I was

434

: 00:25:44

inspired that there is a place in the

institution of science to come to this

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: 00:25:52

intellectually and scientifically.

436

: 00:25:54

Not just from people who have had

experiences, but that there's a growing

437

: 00:26:01

understanding that the materialist

paradigm is limiting us, and it's

438

: 00:26:06

time to start expanding our concept

and considering an alternate view

439

: 00:26:11

of how this all comes together.

440

: 00:26:14

I would definitely encourage

everybody to watch the interview.

441

: 00:26:17

I found it interesting, even if

you're not super scientifically

442

: 00:26:20

inclined, it was interesting.

443

: 00:26:23

So we'll link that and

the Essentia Foundation.

444

: 00:26:26

There's other links to nanobiosym.com,

445

: 00:26:29

that is Dr.

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: 00:26:31

Goel's company, and also the link to her

plenary discussion, so you could see both

447

: 00:26:39

the interview and her plenary presentation

at the symposium; and if you watch

448

: 00:26:46

it, let us know what you think of it.

449

: 00:26:48

Till next time, talk to you later.

450

: 00:26:50

Peter: Great.

451

: 00:26:50

Thanks.

452

: 00:26:51

Bye.

453

: 00:26:53

Thank you for listening to

the Tracking Wisdom podcast.

454

: 00:26:56

Join us next time as we

continue the discussion.

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: 00:26:59

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456

: 00:27:02

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457

: 00:27:07

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